Fisrt of all, I'd like to thank you if you take the time to read it all and warn you that English is not my mothertongue. So I hope I made not too much mistakes and that I'm understandable.
I'd also like you to only answer to this thread if you read it all, many a experienced player might think he got what I want to say after the first few lines and make a wrong answer (this was also tested with Thorgal pain on Team Speak, even in our own language he juped on the conclusion that I should simply visit the museum, what was not the solution)
I tried to explain the following in-game but could not manage express myself well in real time with limited characters sentences. So, as gently suggested, I made this post in the forum.

My concern is about the filtering system of the loot bag with the [claim -t command.
I'd like to say that [claim -c command is a very good addition too and it makes me sad to not be able to rely on all these functionalties for the reason that I explain here under.

As I looked through the default filter list that was assumed to take everything from the targeted corpse (as it is said on the wiki... BTW, in the command section of the wiki, there is a command [claimall that does not exist (anymore?) and the [grab command description might be erroneous), I found it quite small and thus, proceeded to test it out.
As I presumed that it would delete what it would not gather, I tried with a non valuable item (wool), and as I expected, I lost the wool.

You might want to say, simply add wool if you want but
the problem is not to add what I know that is not in the list,
but to add what I don't know that is not in the list (So what I do not know its existance)
or what I don't know where to find. (So what I know its existance but have no idea where to find it)
(You might want to slowly read this sentence a few time XD or read the example at the end )

I'm pretty sure that the list of items that is not in the filter is far bigger than what I know just because I don't know every items in the game. (And I do not speak about customs that, I heard, are all in the museum so easily added to the filter, but the vanillia items!)

For instance, and without further testing (because I do not want to risk losing items, new players tends to give value to worthless items just because they don't know if it might be usefull or if they will make a large collection of it, like gems) I'm pretty sure that most of the following items will not be picked up by default:
-gems other than diamonds
-Seeds
-Misc tinkering parts
-Some vanillia rare or décorative items
-Maybe some quest items (custom or not)
-Of course, wool, although it is not important as you are supposed to shear the animal.

(Please note, that, the filter you got by default when first playing might not be the one new players gets today: for instange, Thorgal Pain was surprised that there was not the "gems" in my filter list but only the diamond)

What I'd like to explain, although I find it difficult, is that for new players (be it new here or new to UO), it is much more difficult to create a filter that says what to pick up (as you need to know that the object exists and have one instance of it) than create a filter that says what NOT to pick up (as in this case, you are supposed to have too much of that item so you can easily set the filter up).

Let's take an example:
If we assume that seeds are not picked up by default (Again, I do not know if it is true, I only use an example of something I know its existance in the game and the fact that it will quickly flood your bag and make it reach its item count limit, thus be an annoyance)
With the current filter system (take only what is listed in the filter), a new player will never see the seeds as long as he is not aware of its existance, plus he might miss a very rare one.
With the opposite filter system (take all but what is listed in the filter), he will quickly have its bag full of seeds, he will then easyly identify the common ones and add them in its filter (not a big deal, they are in its bag) and with the trash bag that everybody should have, the annoyance is only a matter of a few seconds. He'll keep only a few sample of each common seeds, he might also discover the existance of the seeds and try to find out what are its uses on the wiki or stratics for instance. In other words, there is no drawback of the "filter out" system while the "filter in" system needs a very good knowledge of the game.

I just gave you my two cents, I don't know if you'll take the time to change something about it nor if it is difficult, but anyway, I hope so.
Simply adding a little checkbox in the filter gump to invert its functionality would fits me well without changing the habits of all the current players that might prefer the current filtering as it would still be the default mode of the filter.
To make it clear:
By default, the checkbox would be unchecked and say "Take only items in the filter list"
And when the checkbox is checked this would say "Do not take the items in the filter list"

Thank you for your time reading it all.

Your English is quite good, and though it is not your first language, you did a fine job getting your point across. 

It would be much easier to populate your loot list by selecting what you don't want, I've yet to create my loot bag filter since coming back to the shard since the wipe, as it was VERY time consuming and frustrating...But once it was populated and used, it was WELL worth the effort.  The suggestion to streamline the process of populating your [claim list is a good one in my opinion, but I imagine the implementation of it is quite complex.

The loot list was an evolving thing when I played before, things where added, and removed on the fly, fairly easily, the system isn't perfect, but once you have a solid list of things to [claim (friends can really help with this, allowing you to mark items to save), it runs VERY well.

  Since Norton supplied a good "yes" to your post. I will play the villain and supply the "No".

   A [balanced] default list would have every lootable object, in the game, sorted by group-- or as an individual entity-- presented for the user to choose [up or down] from. This I'm afraid is a massive list, which as you might exspect would take a long time to compile; only to have each player customize that list DOWN anyways.

I believe the answer here is 'NO' because new players should be learning the value of things; by playing the game, reading the EVO wiki, and asking friends-- or strangers-- information concerning the lootable items value.

  Understand that my above statement stems from a plausible reason as to why the [claim command function was created in the first place. It was not ment for new players, but rather for the veteran players who had figured out the value of things, and thus knew what to add-- overtime-- to their personal [claim list.

  I do agree, though, that the default list could use a small rewrite/upgrade, but not on a large scale. All of the small gems should be added to the list, as a group, in my opinion. But what you are asking for, again in my opinion, seems to be taking away from, instead of improving upon, the game. Part of this game, I speak of, is learning what is of value; to you and to other new players as well. This knowledge of value is what you must discover first. Then, and only then, will you know what to add to your personal [claim list, in order to: sell the item for profit, keep it for personal use, or trade it to others for best possible gain.

  Knowing that an item exists on a list fails to give that item value. At best it gives you several questions to ask yourself or others. What is this items purpose? Where can I find it in the game? What is its value, in gold, to NPC's? Does it have a higher value to other players, or to myself? These are only a few of the questions you might ask yourself. I'm sure there are more questions that might come to mind, but I feel my point has been made, and wish to close this post with an observation.

  A balanced [default] list would more then likely be blank, with the option to add anything to that blank list; but then that is only my opinion of 'balanced'.


  --Sturger--

Let me explain what i believe hes asking, the loot bag claims everything off a corpse from the first time you use it, then the list, would be what you dont want to loot, so, instead of adding what you want, you add what you dont want, that way you dont miss anything and what you need to add to the list, the unwanted stuff, is already in the bag so you just add it from there instead of searching for items on corpse, at the museum, friends and so on.

@Emperor_Norton

Thank you for the compliment, but still I see that I could not write with advanced words like the "streamline" that you used (and that I'm still not sure what it does mean).
Trying to express myself clearly requires a lot of time for me.

@Emperor_Norton & @Sturger

Only Kane could say if my following statement is true or not, but here again, I hope so:
Normally, when you create process that sorts data in or out on one or more criteria, the result is only true or false at the end. Then, with this boolean value you start the second process to, in this case, transfer the item to the loot bag or discard it (and transform it in gold pieces or tokens maybe? I don't know).
If, and only if it is the case, my idea would only consist at this simple line : sorting_process_boolean_return_value XOR sorting-out_checkbox_boolean_value
Then, pass this new value to the second process as explained just before and the work is done.

So no, there is absolutely no need to create a full in game item list! Only the player has to create its own list by finding the items and consider if its value is not worth the hassle to have a bag full of it.
Amusingly, Thorgal Pain also thought that a full item list had to be created when I spoke with him on TS^^

@Sturger

As you said, the players should learn the value of things. And it is exactely what they can't do with the current system.
As I said, with a BLANK list that takes everything, they will learn what is common and what is not as they slowly discover new items that might not be on the EVO wiki nor the museum as they are part of the original UO.
This is only when you get an item, you know its existance, that you start to wonder how you got it, what's its use, is it rare, does it worth its rareness, is it part of a set, where to fnd the rest of the set... and then you start to search an answer to all these questions.
Right now, the only way I find to learn things is to not use the claim and loot bag at all.
In this way, by collecting leather, I found "Child of Death" and "The Inquisitor's Gorget" on wolves.
In other words, no champs for me nor even a single dungeon. It takes too much time to rummble in all the corpses to find the rare that would have been destroyed otherwise.

Also, visiting the museum or reading too much about the game items (I do not speak about the rules and the basics, nor the warnings on the EVO wiki, anyway, there is no spoilers on the EVO wiki, even the quests walkthrough are only a mere guideline) is like someone telling you the plot of a movie just before you enter the theater.

It saddens me that, from what you say, the loot bag is only a way to accelerate the enrichment of the veteran while slowing down the progress of the new players by having them either miss helpfull object (by using the loot bag) or having them waste a lot of time to sort out the slain ennemies.

Feel free to continue to argue if you think that I did not get your meanings right

@Thorgal Pain

Exactely, but if I had said it in this way, I know what kind of answers I'd get ^^
What is expecially annoying, is searching corpses while there are other monsters around. So you need to be sure to kill them all before your first victims start to decay and then try to loot them all (what is hard when there are on each others) before they respawn.
With a good "newbie claim", I could hide just after to sort my bag, adding items to the filter-out everytime and thus being able to slain much more monsters before my bag is full next time... and so on.

 @ Twillichow

  There is a program built into UOAssist that displays lootables differently. It displays the items in a panel format and gives the user three options. The first option is to close the panel and take nothing; while the second option is to double click each object; doing so brings the corresponding object into your backpack. The final option is to check a box near each of the items you want to keep, and than hit a box at the bottom of the panel which brings all of the checked items into the players bag at one time. I mention this program because I personally use it myself, and it is quick and easy to loot stuff with.

 @ Thorgal Pain

     If what you say is true, then I find the idea sound. I also give it a +1. 

 @ Twillichow
   

Right now, the only way I find to learn things is to not use the claim and loot bag at all. 'said by Twillichow'

@Sturger

Yes, it seems that we are somewhat on an agreement.

So first of all, are you speaking of UOAssist or AssistUO? I say this because I had to switch from AssistUO to Razor because AssistUO did not want to start anymore (same for my girlfriend). It was stuck at "checking for update" and all the help that was given to me on the Team Speak could not resolve it. So I switched to Razor.

And secondly, I know exactely what you are speaking about when you say that, you, veteran, did not have the luxury of a loot bag when you started.
I hope that what I'll say here after will not displease you but here is my answer : I'd prefer nobody having a loot bag than only veteran that can use it effectively, as, this only tend to increase the gap between new and old players although veteran already have the knowledge, the skills and equipment to handle swarm of monsters, champs and any kind of urgencies more effectively.

The point is that, when there is something that slows down the learning of new players, I will fight against it, while, on the other hand, when I see some players complaining about the key price, I'll simply say : take your time and dedicate some work into it! This has to be an advantage for veteran who will use much more ressources than new players trying to craft the ultimate weapon or armor or filling dozens of LBODS for their runic. It has nothing to do with learning nor discovering new things but simply reduce the annoyance of repetitive tasks.

As you say, most arties are crap anyway, except that those are not crap for new players, it is what allows them to slowly progress through the monster difficulty. For instance, I got many arties on wolves or other animals that can easily be taken of by any newplayer with basic equipment. With these I could easyly switch to small monsters or first level of many dungeons. In other word, the only players to miss what they need are the new ones, as here again, veteran will not care about this "Junk".

I'm not selfish at all (I did not say you called selfish neither) in my request, as thoses arties are not really usefull for me neither (Thorgal Pain gave us, to my girlfriend and me, starting equipment and guideline), so the point is really to allow new players to discover easily the rare items and have a better start to -somewhat- take up with the veteran (no need to say that it will still take months or years to reach the level of the best ones)

Anyway, as you agreed with Thorgal Pain's summary, this means that you agree with the new feature I propose, so whatever is the arguing around it, the result will be the roughly same.

(By the way, all this is a very good training for me to improve my English, so, whatever is the result, I did not waste my time.)

 @ Twillichow

  For the most part, it is hard to displease me on the forums. I learned that this is a place for opinions and ideas. Everyone seems to have an opinion, and I love that there is a place to write them down for all to see. The fact that everyone has an opinion has yet to deter me from speaking my mind when it opposes anothers; even if they are friends of mine. To each there own, they say, and this should mean opinions as well. 

  I'm glad this conversation is helping your English, which by the way is rather good. Changing the default list to included everything that can be looted; is a good idea. It forces a player to choose what is of value to them. The only down side, is the potential for a new player to uncheck/check a category box and miss out on those item types.

  My opinion concerning the loot bag stays the same, it is an item for a veteran player to use. However, on this server it is a gift given to every player when they begin their fun here. I am not against new players having the Loot bag right away; but there seems to be the potential for skipping some of the basic fundamentals of the game of UO. One in particular is sifting through items in a MoB's [Monster or Beasts] corpse box.

  In closing, one must realize that having 'Command Words' for specific tasks is a luxury. This statement is true for veterans and new players alike. Since using 'Command Words' is by individual choice; saying an item {loot bag} is unfair to new players, because it is best used by a Veteran player is the wrong way to think about it, in my opinion. Not having the commands or the loot bag helps no one, keeping them as they are helps Veterans the most, but one has to remember that all new players become Veterans after they pay there due.

 Time. One finds wisdom in time.


             --Sturger--


  P.S. I agree there needs to be a since of balance in all things possible here on EVO server. But some things just fall short in the beginning, or appear that way. We love new players here on EVO; how else do you think we make new friends? 

Changing the default list to included everything that can be looted; is a good idea.

I like that idea Thorgal. 

Not mine, it Twilichou's idea i just wrote it down to the basic idea

And Twillichou did not find the Legendary Sapphire on the display table in Britain Castle to be able to use the loot bag as intended.

Here, one may see what I tried to say above: if you are confident about what is said and what is displayed when you are new on the server ("Everything is in the museum and on this table, just add it all to your loot bag"), then you'll miss some items (unfortunately, the legendary sapphire is one of the less visible item in a corpse).
I tried to find the Legendary Sapphire somewhere else but after one or two hours running everywhere, checking vendors, I gave up.

Whatever, I'll be patient, I know that Kane has so much work to do (with the breeding for instance) that it is certainly not a priority. But I'd like to know if Dante and or Kane agree with my idea or if they have forcefull arguments against it. Thank you.